Of all the fighter aces in history the first name who usually
comes to mind is Erich Hartmann. His 352 confirmed kills will
probably stand forever as the bench-mark of success in aerial warfare. However,
Erich’s war in the air became a footnote to his life following the decade of
Soviet imprisonment he experienced following the war. In his own words Hartmann
discussed his life, career, passions and survival in a world few have seen and
even fewer survived.
In
his last formal interview, Erich Hartmann discussed specific facts that he had
usually avoided in the past. This candid insight displays the humanity of the
man himself as opposed to simply the warrior of legend, and provides an insight
into the character of arguably the greatest fighter pilot who has ever, and
probably will ever, fight in hostile skies. Hartmann gave this final interview
before his death in 1993.
Q: Tell about your youth in
China.
Q: What made you want to
become a pilot?
A: Probably the same
reason as most boys; the glory of the aces in the Great War, as well as the fact
that my mother was a licensed pilot. Mother used to take us
up
and teach us things. That was perhaps the greatest factor. I knew I wanted to
fly. I became a licensed glider pilot at fourteen, and flew as often as I could.
I
became an instructor at age fifteen in the Hitler Youth. Alfred became a Stuka
gunner and was captured in Tunisia. That was probably lucky for him
and
saved his life. My father was not pleased that I wanted to be a pilot, he wanted
us to follow him in medicine, and this was also a dream that I had, but
it
would not be.
Q: When did you join the Luftwaffe?
A: I started military flight training in October 1940 in East Prussia. This lasted until January 1942 when I went to Zerbst-Anhalt. I graduated as a leutnant in
March 1942. Later I went to advanced aerial gunnery school, where I got into a little trouble. I was showing off, buzzing the airfield and was sentenced to house
arrest. Ironically my roommate flew the same aircraft I had been in and it developed a technical problem, and he was killed in the crash. That was ironic. I arrived in
Russia
and reported to JG-52 in just before the winter, after a slight mishap.
Q:
Was that when you crashed a Stuka?
A:
Well, I would not say crashed, because I never got off the ground. We
were supposed to fly them
to Mariopol, but when I started the Stuka
I realized that it
had no brakes, and it reacted differently from a Messerschmitt 109. I crashed into he operations shack, and another man flipped his Ju-87 up over on it's nose.
They decided to send us
in a Ju-52, since it was safer for us and the aircraft.
Q:
Was this when you first met Dieter Hrabak?
A:
Yes, he has been a good friend over the years, as you know. Dieter was
the first person to tell
me to talk to you, since he and the others trust you. I like
you
also. Dieter was a very understanding yet disciplined commander, and his
experience showed. He taught us how not just to fly and fight, but how to
work
as a team and stay alive. That was his greatest gift. He was very open to
discussing his own mistakes, and how he learned from them, hoping we would
learn
also. Hrabak assigned me to 7/III/JG-52 under Major Hubertus von Bonin, an old
eagle from the Spanish Civil War and Battle of Britain. We
learned
a lot from him also. My first mission was on 14 October 1942.
Q:
Your first mission was less than spectacular. What happened?
A:
Well, Rossmann and I were in our flight, and Rossmann radioed that he spotted
ten enemy aircraft below us. We were at 12,000 feet and the enemy
was
far below us. I could see nothing but followed Rossmann down, then we came on
them. I knew that I had to get my first kill, so I went full throttle and
left
Rossmann to shoot at a plane. My shots missed and I almost collided into him and
had to pull up. Suddenly I was surrounded by the Soviets and I
headed
for low cloud cover to escape. All along Rossmann kept talking to me, and I had
a low fuel warning. Then the engine went dead and I bellied in,
destroying
my fighter. I knew I was in trouble. I had violated every commandment a fighter
pilot lives by, and I expected to be thrown out.
Q:
What was your fate?
A:
I was sentenced by von Bonin to three days of working with the ground
crews. It gave me time to
think about what I had done. What I learned from
Rossmann
and later Krupinski I later taught to new pilots when I became a leader.
Q:
When did you score your first kill?
A:
That was a day I will never forget, 5 November 1942, a Shturmovik
IL-2, which was the
toughest aircraft to bring down because of the heavy armor
plate.
You had to shoot out the oil cooler underneath, otherwise it would not go down.
That was also the day of my second forced landing since I had flown
into
the debris of my kill. I learned two things that day; get in close and shoot and
break away immediately after scoring the kill. The next kill came in
February
the following year. This was when Krupinski came to Taman and was my new
squadron leader.
Q:
Walter told me about the day he arrived, and his episode with the two
fighters. What do you
remember?
A:
He came in, introduced himself, demanded a plane, went up, was shot down,
and brought back by car.
He then took another, scored two kills and returned,
then
wanted dinner. The whole event was treated as casually as a card game.
Q:
How did you meet Gunther Rall?
A:
Well, I know that Gunther had to have told you about this. He replaced
von Bonin as Gruppenkommandeur
and we were introduced. That was the
beginning.
In August 1943 Rall made me kommandeur
of the 9th squadron, which had been Herman Graf’s command.
Q:
You flew with Krupinski as his wingman often. What was that like, and how
different was it from
flying with Rossmann?
A:
Well, the partnership was a little uneasy at first, but we found that we
worked well together.
We
both had strengths and weaknesses and managed to
overcome
these problems. It worked out well. Besides, I had to make sure that he came
home due to his many girlfriends always waiting on him to come
down.
I won the Iron Cross 2nd Class while flying with ‘Krupi’. The one
thing I learned from him was that the worst thing to do was to lose a wingman.
Kills
were
less important than survival. I only lost one wingman, Gunther Capito, a former
bomber pilot, but this was due to his inexperience with fighters, but he
survived.
Q:
How many kills did you have before you won the Knight’s Cross?
A:
I had scored 148 kills by 29 October 1943. My award was sort of late I
guess. There were many men
who had more than fifty kills who did not receive the
Knight’s
Cross, which I think was unfair. I also thought it unfair that men like Rall,
Barkhorn, Kittel, Baer and Rudorffer did not receive higher decorations.
They
deserved them.
Q:
Tell about your first meeting with Krupinski. I have heard his version
from Walter, but I would
like your version..
A:
I was being addressed by my new Wing Commander (Hrabak) when a fighter came
in smoking, and suddenly landed, flipped over and exploded. We knew
the
pilot was dead. One of the men said that ‘it is Krupinski’, and out of the
blinding smoke this man walked out of the wreckage with a singed uniform,
but
no other damage. He was smiling and complained about the flak over the Caucasus,
but without any real surprise on his face. This was my first meeting
with
“The Count.”
Q:
Who were you first assigned to as wingman?
A:
Feldwebel Eduard ‘Paule’ Rossmann, who took me under his wing.
Q:
Q.
Was it typical that an officer would be assigned to a non-commissioned
officer?
A:
It was for us, since he was a seasoned combat veteran. Rank meant little
over experience, and that
was why we were so successful I think.
Q:
Who was your best friend during those days?
A:
There were so many, most of whom are still alive, but my closest
relationship was with
Heinz Mertens, my crew chief. You rely upon your wingmen to
cover
you in the air, and your team mates in aerial battle, but the man who keeps your
machine flying and safe is the most important man you know. We
became
best of friends, and none of my success would have been possible if not for
Mertens.
Q:
The bond you two had is also legendary. Why the closeness?
A:
I can’t explain it. When I went missing on the mission where I was
captured and escaped,
Mertens had taken a rifle and went looking for me. He would not
give
up. That is a loyalty you never find outside the military.
Q:
Describe the time that you were captured.
A:
The Russians were attacking in our area and Hrabak gave us our orders.
This was in August 1943,
and our mission was to support the Stukas
of Hans-Ulrich
Ruedel
in a counterattack. Then things changed. The Red Air Force was bombing German
ground positions in support of their offensive, so my flight
of
eight fighters located and attacked the enemy, about forty Laggs
and Yaks with another forty or so Shturmovik ground attack aircraft. I shot down two
when
something hit my plane. I made a forced landing and was captured by Soviet
soldiers. I faked that I was injured as they approached the plane. The
believed
me and took me to their HQ and their doctor examined me, and he even believed
me. They placed me back in the truck (which was German) on a
stretcher,
and as Stukas made their attacks I rushed the one guard in the truck.
He went down and I left out the back. As soon as I did that I heard the truck
stop,
so I had to keep moving. I found myself in a great field of very tall sunflowers
where I tried to hide as I ran, all the while the men chasing me
were
firing wildly in my direction. I found a small village occupied by Russians, and
decided to return to the area I had just come from and wait for
nightfall.
[It was during this time that Mertens took it upon himself to take off and find
Hartmann, armed with only a rifle and water, being concerned when
his
friend had not returned]. I reached my secure area and took a nap, and later I
awoke and took off again headed west. I passed a patrol of Russians, about
ten
I think, so I decided to follow them. Then the patrol disappeared over a small
hill, and then there was a firefight. I knew that that must be the German
lines,
since the men of the patrol came flying back over on my side. I then walked to
the other side and was challenged by a German sentry who also
fired
a bullet at me, which ripped open my trouser leg. I was pretty upset, but this
man was in complete fear. I was welcomed into their position, given an
interrogation
and was asked to prepare for contact. Another group of Russians, obviously drunk
walked towards our trenches, and the leutnant
gave the order
to
fire when they came within about twenty meters. They were all destroyed.
I was
later told that a group of Russians had entered their perimeter speaking
fluent
German, claiming to be escaped POWs, and when they came in they pulled out some
Tommy guns and killed some men. This explained their
caution
over accepting me on face value, as I had no identification on me. Everything had been taken when I was captured.
Q:
What happened to Mertens? How did you get back?
A:
The infantry commander contacted Hrabak and who I was was
confirmed. They sent me back by car, and I was met by Krupi
who had just come back
from the hospital. I was also informed about what Bimmel had gone
and done, and I was very upset. The next day Bimmel came back and we saw
each other,
and we had a ‘birthday party.’
Q:
Explain what a ‘birthday party’ is?
A:
That is a party that is thrown in honor of a pilot who survived a
situation that should have
killed him. We had a lot of those.
Q: Perhaps the greatest legend
surrounding your life was the time you first met Ushi, and the love that endured
through the years. Describe that first meeting.
A: We were in the same
school, and finally I decided to track her down. I caught up with her and a
girlfriend and stopped my bicycle, and introduced myself. I
knew
that she was the one for me, although I was only seventeen and she was two years
younger. Our parents were none too thrilled about it, I can tell you,
but
they came around.
Q: You had competition for her
didn’t you?
A: Yes, but I resolved
that problem, it was nothing. Ushi and I were destined to be together, that was
fate. And she waited a long time, even after the war. We
were
married in 1944, but still had little time to spend together. [Actually Erich
warned the much older boy away from her, and when Ushi told him that he
was
harassing her, Erich beat him up, ending the problem]. We were married after I
had the Diamonds, and Gerd {Barkhorn] was my best man, with Willi
Batz and Krupi as witnesses. We could not marry in a church due to the logistical problems. That would have to wait until 1956.
except
Gerd were getting the Oak Leaves, he was getting the Swords. By the time we got
their we were trying to sober up. Walter always stated years later
that
we had to hold each other up. We had been drinking cognac and champagne, a
deadly combination when you have not eaten in a couple of
days. The first person we met off the train was Hitler’s Luftwaffe adjutant, Major von Below, who was I think in a state of shock at our condition. We were
to
meet Hitler in a couple of hours, and we could hardly stand. This was in March
1944, and there was a lot of snow at that time at that altitude.
Q: I spoke to Walter Krupinski
and read about the ‘hat event’ in your biography by Ray Toliver and Trevor
Constable. What was that about?
A: I could not find my
hat, and my vision was not the best, so I took a hat on a stand and put it on,
and it was too large. I knew it was not mine at that time.
Below
became upset and told me it was Hitler’s, and to put it back. Everyone was
laughing about it except Below. I made some joke about Hitler having a
big
head, and that it ‘must go with the job,’ which created even more laughter.
Q: What was your impression of
Hitler?
A: I found him a little
disappointing, although very interested in the war at the front and extremely
well informed on events as I knew them. However, he had
a
tendency to drone on about minor things that I found boring. I found him
interesting yet not that imposing. I also found him lacking in sufficient know-
ledge
about the air war in the east. He was more concerned with the Western Front’s
air war and the bombing of cities. Of course the Eastern Front ground
war
was his area of most interest. This was evident. Hitler listened to the men from
the Western Front, and assured them that weapons and fighter production
were
increasing, and history proved this to be correct. Then he went into the U-boat
war, how we were going to decidedly destroy maritime commerce, and
all
of that. I found him an isolated and disturbed man.
Q: What was the feeling about
the war in your unit at this time?
A: I don’t recall
anyone talking of defeat, but I do know that we talked about some of the great
pilots killed already, and the news of the American
Mustangs
reaching deep into Germany, and even farther. Few of us had any experience
against the Americans, although many old timers had fought the
British.
Those who fought Americans had done so in North Africa, and their insights
proved interesting.
Q: What was the atmosphere
like when you won the Swords?
A: I had just landed
after a successful mission when I was told that I had been awarded the Swords.
This was June 1944. I arrived on 3 August 1944 to visit
Hitler
again for the award ceremony, and there were ten of us Luftwaffe guys in all. Hitler was not the same man. This was just
after the bomb plot to kill
him,
and his right arm was shaking, and he looked exhausted. He had to turn to his
left ear to hear anyone speak because he was deaf in the other one from
the
blast. Hitler discussed the cowardly act to kill him, and attacked the quality
of his generals, with a few exceptions. He also stated that God had spared his
life
so that he may deliver Germany from destruction, and that the Western Allies
would be thrown back inevitably. I was very surprised at all of this.
I
wanted
to leave and see my Ushi, and I did.
Q: How was the meeting with
Hitler and receiving the Diamonds different from the previous two encounters?
A: Well Dieter Hrabak
and the rest threw a party before I left, and I was so drunk I could not stand
the next day. It sounds like we were all alcoholics, but this
was
not the case. We lived and played hard. You never knew what the next day would
bring. I few my 109 to Insterburg, and JG-52 gave me an escort.
When
I arrived at the Wolfschanze the world had changed. Hitler had already begun the
trials and executions of those involved and everyone was under
suspicion.
You had to enter three areas of security, and no one was allowed to carry a
weapon into the last section. I told Hitler’s SS guard to tell the Fuehrer
that
I would not receive the Diamonds if I were not trusted to carry my Walther
pistol. The guy looked like I had just married his mother. He went to
speak
with von Below, who was a Colonel then, and Below came out said it was all
right. I hung my cap and pistol belt on the stand and Hitler came to me,
and
said, “I wish we had more like you and Ruedel,” and he gave me the Diamonds,
which were encrusted upon another set of Oak Leaves and Swords.
We
had coffee and lunch, and he confided in me, saying ‘militarily the war is
lost,’ and that I must already know this, and that if we waited the Western
Allies
and Soviets would be at war with each other. He also spoke about the partisan
problem and he asked me of my experience. Hitler asked me my
opinion
of the tactics used in fighting the American and British bombers. Since I did
not have a lot of experience with this, I simply stated what I
thought
was a fact. Goering’s orders to combat them and the method employed was in
error. I also informed him of the deficiencies in pilot
training;
too many minimally trained men were simply throwing their lives away. He also
spoke about the new weapons and tactics, and then we parted.
That
was the last time I saw him, 25 August 1944. I flew back to the unit, where an
order for ten days leave waited. I also had to report to Galland,
where
we discussed the Me-262 situation. I went back to marry my Ushi, that was all
that mattered to me.
to us. I suppose I was most worried that Ushi would not wait, so I always tried to see her whenever I was on leave. Medals meant leave, and that was
an incentive. I had the choice of losing her or returning all the decorations, I would send the medals back. She was too important to me, and always has been.
highest bounties of any Germans during the war, probably with exception to Hitler and a few of the Nazi elite. Every time I went up I knew that someone would be
looking for me. I had thoughts of the American western films, where the top gunfighter is called out into the street; another person wanting to make his mark. I felt
marked, so I had to change my aircraft occasionally. I found that when I used the black tulip I had more difficulty in finding opponents, who avoided me for the most part.
I
needed camouflage.
A: Well, in the winter
you can imagine. We seldom had hard shelter, living in tents. The lice were the
worst, and there was little you could but hold your
clothes
to a fire and listen to them pop. We had DDT and bathed when we could.
Illness,
especially pneumonia and trench foot were bad, especially
among the ground crews. Food was always a concern, especially later in the war, and fuel restrictions made every mission count. We always flew from grass
strips and we were often bombed. These strips were easy to repair, although the terrain made every take off and landing an adventure. Sometimes fighters would
snap their landing gear, or just dig in and topple over. Maintenance was another nightmare, as supplies and parts were difficult to get to, especially when we were
moving
around all the time. Despite these problems we were very successful in the
Crimea through 1943-44.
Q: I know that JG-52 as well
as other units flew with foreign air forces. What was your experience with this?
A: We had a Royal
Hungarian unit assigned to us, as well as Croats. They were good pilots and
fearless in many ways. Good men. We had even more contact
especially
with the Romanians when we were stationed there, and this was where we engaged
both the Americans and Soviets; a very trying time. We
were flying in Russia against twenty to one. In Romania it was thirty to one.
Q. The evacuation from the Crimea was described to me by Hrabak. How was it for you?
A: Well, I would not
call it an evacuation, but a full retreat. We had to move, and I discovered that
when the radio, armor plate and rear wall, you could stack
four
men in the tail, but three was about the most I would try. We managed to save
many of our precious ground crew from capture using this method.
Q: What were the Soviets like
that you captured? Was there any open racism among your men towards these
people?
A: One situation comes
to mind. I was in a duel with a Red Banner flown Yak-9,
and this guy was good, and absolutely insane. He tried and tried to get in
behind
me, and every time he went to open fire I would jerk out of the way of his
rounds. Then he pulled up and rolled, and we approached each other head
on,
firing, with no hits either way. This happened two times. Finally I rolled into
a negative G dive, out of his line of sight, and rolled out to chase him at
full
throttle. I came in from below in a shallow climb and flamed him. The pilot
bailed out and was later captured. I met and spoke with this man, a
captain,
who was a likeable guy. We gave him some food and allowed him to roam the base
after having his word that he would not escape. He was happy
to
be alive, but he was very confused, since his superiors told him that Soviet
pilots would be shot immediately upon capture. This guy had just had one of
the
best meals of the war and had made new friends. I like to think that people like
that went back home and told their countrymen the truth about us, not the
propaganda
that erupted after the war, although there were some terrible things that
happened, no doubt. Once I attacked a flight of four IL-2s and shot one
up.
All four tried to roll out in formation at low altitude, and all four crashed
into the ground, unable to recover since their bomb loads reduced their
maneuverability. Those were the easiest four kills I ever had. However, I remember the time I saw over 20,000 dead Germans littering a valley where
the Soviet tank and Cossacks had attacked a trapped unit, and that sight, even from the air was perhaps the most memorable of my life. I can close my
eyes and see this even now. Such a tragedy. I remember that I cried as I flew low over the scene; I could not believe my eyes. Another time was in May 1944
near Jassy, my wingman Blessin and I were jumped by fighters, he broke right and the enemy followed him down. I rolled and followed the enemy fighter down
to the deck. I radioed to my wingman to pull up and slip right in a shallow turn so I could get a good shot. I told him to look back, and see what happens when you
do not watch your tail, and I fired. The fighter blew apart and fell like confetti. However, separate from Krupinski’s crash the day I met him, one event is clear and
comical. My wingman on many missions was Carl Junger. He came in for a landing and a Polish farmer with horse cart crossed his path. He crashed into it, killing the
horse and the fighter was nothing but twisted wreckage. We all saw it and began thinking about the funeral, when suddenly the debris moved and he climbed out without a
scratch, still wearing his sunglasses. He was ready to go up again. Amazing! Then there was the American Mustangs that we both dreaded and anticipated meeting. We
knew that they were a much better aircraft than ours; newer and faster, and with a great range. Once in Romania we had an interesting experience with both Russians
and
Americans.
Q: What happened on that
mission?
A: We took off on a
mission to intercept Soviet bombers attacking Prague, and we counted many
American made aircraft with Red Stars, part of your Lend
Lease.
But then there were American fighters also nearby, and I was above them all by a
thousand meters. It seemed that the Americans and Russians
were
busy examining each other and were unaware that we were around. I gave the order
to drop down through the Mustangs,
then the Russian fighters,
and
through the bombers in just one hit and run attack, then we would get the hell
out of there, since there were only the two of us. I shot down two P-51s
quickly
in my dive, and I then fired on a Boston
bomber, scored good hits but it was not a kill. The second element also scored a
kill against the Mustangs,
and
my wingman and I were all right. Suddenly
the most amazing thing happened. The Soviet fighters and Americans began
fighting each other, and
the
confusion worked for us. They must have not realized that it was a schwarm
of Germans that started the whole thing! The Russian bombers
dropped
their bombs in panic and turned away. I saw three Yaks get shot down and a Mustang
damaged trailing white smoke. That was my last fight against
the
Americans.
Q: When did you first
encounter the American pilots?
A: This was in the
defense of Ploesti and Bucharest, and also over Hungary when the bombers came in
and they had heavy fighter escort. I was recalled to take
over
the command I/JG-52, and this was 23 June 1944. B-17s were attacking the
railroad junction, and we were formed up. We did not see the Mustangs
at
first
and prepared to attack the bombers. Suddenly four of them flew across us and
below, so I gave the order to attack the fighters. I closed in on one and
fired,
this fighter coming apart and some pieces hit my wings, and I immediately found
myself behind another and I fired, and he flipped in. My
second
flight shot down the other two fighters. But then we saw others and again
attacked. I shot down another and saw that the leader still had his drop
tanks,
which limited his ability to turn.
I
was very relieved that this pilot was able to successfully bail out. I was out
of ammunition after the fight. But this
success
was not to be repeated, because the Americans learned and they were not to be
ambushed again. They protected the bombers very well, and we were
never
able to get close enough to do any damage. I did have the opportunity to engage
the Mustangs again when a flight was
being pursued from the rear and
I
tried to warn them on the radio, but they could not hear. I dived down and
closed on a P-51 that was shooting up an 109, and I blew him up. I half rolled
and
recovered to fire on another of the three remaining enemy planes and flamed him
as well. As soon as that happened I was warned that I had several
on
my tail so I headed for the deck, a swarm of eight Americans behind me. That is
a very uncomfortable feeling I can tell you! I made jerking turns left
and
right as they fired, but they fired from too far away to be effective. I was
headed for the base so the defensive guns would help me, but I ran out of
fuel
and had to bail out. I was certain that this one pilot was lining me up for a
strafe, but he banked away and looked at me, waving. I landed four miles from
the
base; I almost made it. That day we lost half our aircraft; we were too
outnumbered and many of the young pilots were inexperienced.
and
held his fire, and seemed to be watching the situation, then you knew that an
experienced pilot was on you. Also, I developed different tactics for various
conditions,
such as always turning into the guns of an approaching enemy, or rolling into a
negative G dive forcing him to follow or break off, then rolling
out
and sometimes reducing air speed to allow him to over commit. That was when you
took advantage of his failing.
Q: There were some skeptics
who questioned your kills. Tell about that, and how high did it go?
A: Well, this happened
to a few of us. Goering could not believe the staggering kills being recorded
from 1941 on. I even had a man in my unit, someone you
also
know, Fritz Oblesser, who questioned my kills. I asked Rall to have him
transferred from the 8th Squadron to be my wingman for a while.
Oblesser
became
a believer and signed off on some kills as a witness, and we became friends
after that.
Q: Adolf Galland told me of
how he tried to get you into his JV-44 in 1945. Why did you not take him up on
the offer, like Krupi and Barkhorn?
A: I did qualify in the
Me-262, but my heart and friends were in JG-52, and I felt that was where I
belonged. Unit loyalty to me was important. Plus I had many
new
pilots who needed guidance and instruction. They were getting younger all the
time and had fewer and fewer hours of flight instruction before they
were
thrown into battle. I was needed and that was where I stayed. Rall, Krupinski,
Steinhoff and others were transferred to the Reich Defense, where
they
ended their war. I was torn between these facts, but I felt that I made the
right decision at the time. In later years I realized that my life would have
been
very different if I had stayed
with JV-44.
A: Graf, Grasser and I
surrendered to the 90th Infantry Division, and we were placed in a
barbed wire camp. The conditions were terrible. Many men
decided
to escape, and some were assisted by the guards. We went eight days without any
food, and then were told we were to be moved. All of us, even
women
and children were taken to an open field. The trucks stopped and there were
Soviet troops there waiting for us. The Russians then separated the
women
and girls from the men, and the most horrible things happened, which you know
and I cannot say here. We saw this; the Americans saw this, and we
could
do nothing to stop it. Men who fought like lions cried like babies at the sight
of complete strangers being raped repeatedly. A couple of girls managed
to run to a truck and the Americans pulled them in, but the Russians, most were drunk pointed their guns at the allies and fired a few shots. Then the truck
drivers
decided to drive away quickly. Some women were shot after the rapes.
Others were
not so lucky. I remember a twelve year old girl whose
mother had been raped and shot being raped by several soldiers. She died from these acts soon afterward. Then more Russians came, and it began all over again and
lasted through the night. During the night entire families committed suicide, men killing their wives and daughters, then themselves. I still cannot believe these things
as I speak now. I know many will never believe this story, but it is true. Soon a Russian general came and issued orders for all of this to stop. He was serious, because
some of the Russians who did not stay away and came to rape were executed on the spot by their own men by hanging.
Q: What was your internment
like in Russia?
A: Well, I was somewhat
famous, or infamous, depending upon your perspective, and the Soviets were very
interested in making an example of me. I was never
badly
beaten and tortured, but I was starved and threatened for several years. The
interrogations were the worst. I know that you have interviewed several
Germans who experienced the same thing. The stories are pretty much the same, so I won’t go into details. The first thing they did was give us physical exams to
determine how fit we were for hard labor. Then they put us on a train which was diverted from Vienna to the Carpathians in Romania. We were placed in another
wired prison with Romanian Communist guards. This lasted a week and then we boarded another train. There was no room in these small train cars, so not all could
sit, so we took turns. Finally we arrived near Kirov and disembarked in a swamp. This was our home for a while. Of the 1,500 POWs who were dropped at this place
about 200 lived through the first winter. This I know from some who survived. They were not fed, just worked to death. I was sent to Gryazovets where Assi Hahn was
already.
He had been a POW since 1943.
slave
labor conditions and the fact that the Soviets were simply working men to death
out of spite. I was ironically placed in a camp at Kuteynikovo where
my
squadron had been based in 1943.
Q: Which camp had the revolt?
A: That was Shakhty.
This was when I and others refused to work, invoking the Geneva Convention.
They
placed me back in solitary. This was a work camp
for
mining and many men were tired of it, and I think my being gone started the
problem. Within a few days the POWs jumped the guards, cornered the
camp
commandant and freed me. It was quite exciting. Then they sent me to the other
camps, and at Diaterka there 4,000 men there.
Q: Describe a camp, how was it
laid out?
A: A fine example was
Diaterka. There was a high fence, then a dead zone with a walkway for guards and
dogs, then another fence with watch towers with more
guards
and machine guns. There were long rows of barracks which were not insulated
against the cold, and the winters were quite cold I can tell you. Each
barrack
held between 200 and 400 prisoners depending on its size, and there were rows of
wooden bunks in tiers of three to four. The camp was divided
into
maximum and minimum security sections, with us being in the most secure section.
The ultra maximum security section housed elite members of
the
Third Reich and special Soviet political prisoners, which was another section
even within our part within its own wired enclosure. This was where
Hitler’s
SS adjutant Otto Gunsche and Count von
der Schulenburg were held, among others. I stayed there until 1954 when I was
sent back to Novocher-
kassk.
This was my last camp.
Q: Did the Soviets try and recruit you, as they did others?
A: Yes, they offered me
the opportunity to return home if I worked as an agent for them, which was out
of the question. They did not like this either. I was
assigned
kitchen duties as an inducement to become a converted Communist. I think that if
they could get us high ranking and highly decorated officers to
convert
their job would be made much easier. They converted Graf, which was a shame, but
he did not embrace Communism. He looked at it as a pragmatist,
it
was either the western way or Soviet way, and he was already there. They did
release him in 1950, but I would not be so lucky. Those of us who resisted
were
punished much longer. They wanted me as an informer and even gave me a list of
names of officers they wanted information on. They promised me
early
release if I did this. I refused. They placed me in solitary a few times, for a
long time.
Q: How did you maintain your
sanity when others did not?
A: I thought of my Ushi. She kept me going, and the thought of my family waiting for me. They threatened to kill my wife and son, or forcibly bring them to Russia, and they
spoke about doing terrible things.
All of this was to break you down.
Q: Did you have mail or
communication with Germany?
the information they needed.
I
received about fifty letters from Ushi in the ten and a half years, but she
wrote over 400. Getting a
you could imagine.
Q: You and Graf had a parting
in Russia. Why was that?
A: Well, we had agreed
never to surrender our Diamonds to the Soviets. My originals were with Ushi, and
a copy was taken by an American, and another
copy
I had also. I threw them away, although they were worthless, rather than
surrender them, Graf and had given his, and they were on the table of the
NKVD
officer when I was called in. He wanted mine also. He did not get them.
They
also wanted detailed information on the Me-262, which they had
several
captured machines they wanted to evaluate. I did not help them.
Q: What separated the Germans
from the rest of the international prisoners; how did all of you manage to
survive when so many perished?
A: I would have to say
our discipline; we never lost our military bearing and our rigid system and
mutual respect for our own authority maintained us. We had
the
rank structure and presence of mind to form our own leadership committees.
Even
though we wore no rank everyone understood their place
and
all worked within the system. That was our strength, as well as many of us
having our faith in God. I thought of my faith and my Ushi, and that got me
through.
Many men found it difficult when word would come that their wives had divorced
them, or that a relative, such as a parent had died. My son Peter
died
while I was a POW but I only learned of this much later, a year or more, as with
my father. I learned more when I was repatriated in 1955 along with
Hans
Baur, Ferdinand Schoerner, Hajo Herrmann, Herman Graf, Johannes Wiese, and
several others. Assi Hahn was released earlier than the rest of us,
as
was Walter Wolfram who had been badly wounded before our capture. Wolfram
smuggled a private letter to Usch for me, which let her know I was
still
alive.
Q: You did receive Red Cross
packages available to all prisoners didn’t you?
A: Yes, sometimes, but
these were often rifled through and delayed so long the food contents were
worthless. Those packages that did arrive well were very
helpful,
especially when it came to trading with the local civilians. We made many
friends with the local peasants, and they had no ill will towards us, nor
we
them.
Q: How many missions did you
fly in the war?
A: I flew around 1,456 I
think, but I am not sure of the exact number.
Q: What was you favorite
method of attack?
A: Coming out of the sun
and getting close; dog-fighting was a waste of time. The hit and run with
the element of surprise served me well, as with most of
the
high scoring pilots. Once a Russian was shot down, especially the leader they
became disorganized and easy to attack. This was not always the case,
especially
later in the war, and there were special units of highly skilled and disciplined
pilots, such as the Red Banner units who would make life difficult.
Q: You were never wounded were
you?
A: No. I was very lucky, unlike Rall and Krupinski, and especially Steinhoff who was almost burned alive. I was almost killed by a German sentry once returning
from
a brief period of captivity. That was too close for me.
Q: Were you ever shot down?
A: No, never by an enemy
plane, but I had to crash land fourteen times due to damage from my victories or
mechanical failure, but I never took to the
parachute.
I never became another pilot’s victory.
Q: As far as we know you were
the youngest recipients of the Diamonds, at twenty-two. Did you find that
distinction problematic?
A: I think that being a
captain and a Diamonds winner at that age forced a lot of responsibility upon
me. I think that I was able to handle all of that
responsibility
because of the strength and friendship of my comrades. I would say that I was
ambitious and eager; I can’t think of any fighter pilot who
would
not have those qualities. Becoming a hero is not always easy, as you find
yourself living up to the expectations of others. I would have preferred to
just
do my job and finish the war anonymously. It would have made life as a Soviet
POW much easier.
Q: What events secured your
release?
A: Chancellor Konrad Adenauer was very crucial in this. My mother had written Stalin and Molotov on my behalf without any response. She wrote to Adenauer and
he replied personally that he was working on the problem. The Soviets wanted a trade agreement with the west, especially West Germany, and part of this deal was
the release of all the POWs. I knew something was going on when we were allowed to go to the cinema and were issued new clothes, suits of a kind, and not prison issue.
We boarded a bus to Rostov where we boarded a train in October 1955. Other trains would follow with the last coming in December. As soon as the train stopped at
Herleshausen
I was able to send a telegram to my Ushi.
Q: What would you say were the
greatest highs and lows of coming home in 1955?
A: I learned that my son
Peter Erich and father had died while I was in prison, and that was a hard thing
for me, and I will say no more. But my mother and
lovely
Ushi were there waiting for me. They never gave up hope, and I think that my
belief in their strength was what got me through the most terrible
torture
or starvation. Whatever the NKVD did to me, I just thought about my family, and
focused upon that. Another sad thing was that when the train
stopped
and we got out, hundreds of women and men were holding photographs of sons,
brothers, husbands and fathers, all asking everyone they
saw
if they knew of their love one. Many thousands had died and there was rarely any
communication back home to anyone as to what had happened, so
many
never returned and the families knew nothing. They were simply ghosts who
vanished. I find that very sad.
Q: What was one of the first
things you wanted when you came home?
A: Well, a good meal,
and a hot bath! But to see my Ushi was the greatest dream. I also read
everything I could find; newspapers, books and magazines, I
wanted
information. I had been in an intellectual vacuum for so long, I wanted
knowledge. Of course Ushi and I had our church wedding, long overdue.
Q: Was there any celebration
for your return?
A: Yes, a big party was
planned but I declined it. I did not feel that it was appropriate until everyone
was home who was still alive. I also could not
believe
the rebuilt areas and numbers of new cars, the airplanes in the peaceful sky.
The clothes style was new, all of it was new. One of the first people to
meet
me was Assi Hahn, who had been home five years before.
Q: Why did you join the Bundesluftwaffe.
Was there anything in your mind that would have prevented you from wearing a
uniform again?
A: There is always the
thought that you may once again be in the same situation again. I was
thirty-three when I came home, and that is late in life to start a
career.
I had lost touch with much of the world, but the one thing I knew was flying and
the military. That was a safe call to make. The thought of fighting
another
war also frightened me. But I also thought about
the needs of my country, and my old comrades had joined and were pressuring me
to do the
same.
Krupi called and wanted me to join he and Gerd Barkhorn on a flying trip to
England. Dieter Hrabak even came and talked to me at the house. I
joined
in 1956. The old boys were back.
Q: How did you get back into
flying?
A: I had a friend who let me fly his light plane, and I certified as a private pilot. Heinz Baer was also a great help, as were others. I took refresher and conversion
training
in Germany, England and the United States on the newer models. I was made the
first Kommodore of the new JG-71 “Richthofen”
and I was very proud.
Q: I know that you and
Steinhoff, among others warned the German government off the F-104 program, and
that this was a very sensitive issue. What do you
say
about that today?
A: Yes. Well, the Starfighter
was a great plane, but it had problems, and I did not feel that Germany needed,
or that our pilots could even handle this machine
without
a lot more experience. Many higher up felt that I was out of line, but I stated
what I thought was accurate, and I was proven correct, but this made me
enemies.
I also did other things that were considered criminal, such as having the
unit’s F-86s painted with my old tulip pattern, and I created the squadron
bars,
like in the old days, and this raised eyebrows. I felt that morale was important
and camaraderie through a unique and distinguishing emblem was
needed.
The bars were killed under superior directives, although today all squadrons
have them. I did have supporters, such as General Kammhuber, but
he
was a rare breed from the old days.
Q: What did you do after
retirement?
A: I instructed and flew
at a few air clubs, and flew in an aerobatics team with Dolfo Galland. Later I
just decided to relax and enjoy life. I have my family
and
friends, and am always meeting new ones, like you Colin. We have spoken often
for many years, but I feel that now is the time to say some of the
things
I never really spoke about. There is always a time for everything.
A: One thing I learned
is this: Never allow yourself to hate a people because of the actions of a few.
Hatred and bigotry destroyed my nation, and millions
died.
I would hope that most people did not hate Germans because of the Nazis, or
Americans because of slaves. Never hate, it only
eats you alive.
Keep
an open mind and always look for the good in people. You may be surprised
at what you
find.
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